Financial News
Peers Deal Blow To Welfare Reform Plans
The Government has suffered an "embarrassing" defeat over its welfare reform proposals as peers voted to exclude child benefit from the £26,000 cap.
Peers voted by 252 to 237, a majority of 15, in favour of an amendment introduced by the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds, the Rt Rev John Packer, which received Labour backing.
He said: "It cannot be right for the cap to be the same for a childless couple as for a couple with children. Child benefit is the most appropriate way to right this unfairness."
He argued that, in effect, the cap denied child benefit payments to people whose other benefits had reached £500 a week.
"This cap is not simply targeted at wealthy families living in large houses," he said.
"It will damage those who have to pay high rents because often that rent has increased substantially in the course of their occupancy of that house."
Sky's chief political correspondent Jon Craig said: "The big story is of a huge rebellion - a mutiny led by Paddy Ashdown, which he announced on Sky News.
"He said he was going to do it, and he did."
He added: "It's a huge embarrassment for the Government."
In a statement a Department for Work and Pensions spokesperson said: "We are very disappointed by this decision and it clearly flies in the face of public opinion. There has to be a limit on the amount of money benefit claimants can receive.
"If you take child benefit out of the cap - it will simply become ineffective, failing the very principles of our reforms, which is to bring fairness back into our welfare system while ensuring that support goes to those who need it.
"We are determined our reforms will be implemented in full and we will take this back to the House of Commons to reverse tonight's decision."
The defeat was the fifth the Government has received on the Bill, including three on one day earlier this month.
But ministers saw off a Labour-led move earlier today to exempt families threatened by homelessness from a benefits cap by 250 votes to 222, majority 28.
The Government is facing a concerted attack from Labour peers, Church of England bishops and some Liberal Democrat rebels who want concessions.
Former Lib Dem leader Lord Ashdown became the most high-profile figure so far to speak out against the plans, denouncing them as "completely unacceptable" in their current form.
The defeat, which came during report stage debate on the Welfare Reform Bill, is likely to be overturned when the legislation returns to the Commons.
Welfare reform minister Lord Freud defended the cap, insisting households should not be able to receive more in benefits than the average family earned from work.
"People on benefits should face the same choices as working families, including where they can afford to live," he said.
Arguing against the bishop's proposals, he added: "Like other welfare benefits, child benefit is provided by the state and funded by taxpayers and therefore we believe it is right it is taken into account along with other state benefits when applying the cap.
"The effect of excluding child benefit would simply be that families on child benefit would have an income higher than average earnings - there would be no upper limit to the amount of benefit a household could receive as that would clearly depend on the number of children."
Former Lib Dem chief whip Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope said he was opposed in principle to a household benefit cap.
He said it allowed ministers arbitrarily to "over-ride" people's rightful benefit entitlements and insisted: "I don't think it's safe to grant ministers these powers."
The vote on the controversial welfare reforms comes after Iain Duncan Smith told Sky News that they are not designed to "punish".
Despite the divisions in his own ranks, Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has said he is fully signed up to the changes.
Prime Minister David Cameron said: "It's a basic issue of fairness. It's time to call time on these excessive welfare payouts. That's what the benefit cap will do."
what do you think?
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Lawrence James
Maybe the C of E bishop should take a look at his bible, 2 Thessalonians 3: "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat."

Jim England
Very true and morally the right way to conduct one's life.

martin6677
...for those of us still living in the Dark Ages, perhaps...

hollywoodbowden
Least they are sorting it out and stop people having kids for houses and money as they are just meal tickets
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Princess Angelique
Totally agree! Been saying that for decades!

david p
Best thing this government has done. I work 40 hours a week and do not earn £26,000.

paulnaylor
would it not be better just to make a rent cap, then there would be no need to make a benefit cap...is that not logical.......media and polititicians just love to get there oar stuck right into people less fortunate than themselves, the people to blame are the greedy landlords (so called property developers), i personally know people that bought blocks of houses in the 90s at knock down rates , mortgauged themselves to the hilt. eg. over 1.5mill........then rent them out and keep pushing the rents up......this is where the problem lies, cant you see.....open eyes people.

paulnaylor
but then i guess quite a few politicians own many rented houses and it wouldnt be in their own intrest , much better to deflect the blame to the claimant

Lynn Hewitt
I completely aggree with you paul, I live in York and was on benefits when I first came here. I had to live in a single room in a hostel - the rent was £90 per week. When I asked what would happen when I got a job I was told I would have to move out because they wanted another person they could use as a 'cash cow'. I got out ASAP. If the government insists on stopping housing benefits people will end up homeless, I don't care what the politicians say. I can always tell when politicians are being untruthful - their lips move!

paulnaylor
yousee the photo of ian duncan smith heading this news item.....am i on my own in wanting to punch it lol

Grant Berry
looks like you are on your own

paulnaylor
not really , but i think i can see into your mind , its not difficult....if you know what i mean

eddie
This makes sense. Why should somebody who is either unable to get work or does not want it get more than those that work full time. This is the equivlant to somebody working earning £35000 a year. If benefits are to generous some won't bother to work. When we first married in the early 70s we received dole and that was it. From that we had to pay our rent and heating etc. Work looked more rewarding so that is what we aimed for if we could find it. We are going to create a generation of benefit scroungers if they are to generous.

paulnaylor
it tells me wages are too low, if we went back to 70s where would all the current scrougers as you call them go, under your system as things stand they would have nowhere to live, families would then either be put in hostels or made to live in bed and breakfast hotels, but at what cost, money would not be saved as those options cost a lot more, and lead to misery to boot.......landlords and greed are where the problem lies dont you see it.

Barnaby Erdman
Me and my partner both work full time and earn about £24 between us... Explain to me why the people in the flat next door are currently allowed to get substantially more than us just coz they have two sprags, and a third on the way, n have not worked a single day in the 3 years we have lives there!! Both manage to wander around town every day, pushing a pushchair, drive a car... Can't be that ill! Makes me sick!

Jim England
It's ok Barnaby, the worm has turned - these workshy folk are starting to feel the wrath of the vast majority of taxpaying, decent people who get up every morning and put a shift in to EARN their money. It won't stop here, there's simply not enough money in the pot to keep paying the idle more than workers to do nothing but reproduce!

eddie
Not all on benefits are living in private rental property. As in the town i live in many are in council or housing association property and live rent free as part of their benefits so we can't blame all the landlords.

paulnaylor
yes but , but those are not the ones that are getting equivilent of 35k eddie.....those that get the equivent of 35k are the ones that are in private rentals.....look into it.....all council rents are set at a kind of a affordable rate, they have to be.....so why not private landlords

paulnaylor
end of the day mate how much do you think the landlord gets of the 35k.....i will be willing to bet its most of it, and that cant be right

Princess Angelique
No, the landlord doesn't see most of it, Paul! A relative of mine has a 3-bed property in Clapham, rental value c.£1,000 per month. The housing benefit that the tenant gets paid for housing is just over £600, so that's all he gets!! He would be well within his rights to evict the tenant and get one on who's not on benefit, so he actually "loses" c.£400 per month!

paulnaylor
princess, im not saying every landlord is driven by money, but you can be pretty sure most are......the one example you give cant be taken as reflective, im afraid...no offense intended

Jenny Molloy
Princess, you should tell your cousin to ask to see his tenants award letter. If housing benefit are not paying full amount then he should be chasing the tenant for the shortfall or evicting them. Housing benefit and tenants do not dictate the rental cost. Maybe the £600 per month is all they're entitled to in which case they obviously should be looking elsewhere

Grant Berry
bye bye scroungers

paulnaylor
so you think its fine for someone to charge as much as they like for rent then grant, or can you not see further than your nose

paulnaylor
and where do you think they will "bye bye" to , i will tell you grant , familys that end up with no home will be put in hostels, and at what cost, much more than current costs......so wheres the "bye bye" in that when more of your beloved tax money is spent on them.....i think your a kind of person that never thinks through to the end, just likes to make childish statments with no backbone.

stephen
grant berry is clown all he thinks of is me me me .he is whats wrong with this country . grant why don't you go and live in the USA no nhs people living on the street . that's what you want don't you

paulnaylor
nail on the head steve, i cant really do with people who think they have somthing to say but in actual fact have very little.

Steve Pickering
Me and my wife both work 40 hrs a week, i am amazed at what some people get on the social nowadays, when i was unemployed 20 years ago we got hardly anything,when you went to the job centre to look for work they always tried to get you interviews with jobs with alot less money than you were on before, they said you are living beyond your means trying to find a job with the same top line of pay as you were on.to easy for people with children to get what they want, simple thing is if you cant afford it dont have it and that includes kids.

paulnaylor
somthings have changed and some havent steve, i can assure you though that if you have been out of work a while (depending on your situation) you cant just pluck figures that you would only be willing to work for and still recieve benefit....please note i did say depending on your situation.

jeanne
Very high rents, very low wages, illegal wars and a corrupt banking system are robbing us of valuable resources, a work ethic and self respect. The benefit savings are a drop in the ocean compared to the usurous and murderous intent of the 1%.

paulnaylor
hence cap rents , helps both in work and out of work

Gavin Adams
The Monarchy get £7 million a year on social so it would be good to see that capped at £26,000 a year.

paulnaylor
lol now that is funny.....strangely makes some kind of sense

stephen
the government has suffered a defeat. what again ha ha ha love it

Jim England
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Stuart Harley
Ive always believed in the H.O.L but they are not paying, We are, the poor taxpayers are....when I needed a small handout, I got nothing at all.....its NOT fair......please read below.... Prime Minister David Cameron said: "It's a basic issue of fairness. It's time to call time on these excessive welfare payouts. That's what the benefit cap will do."

Stuart Harley
div john packer..... did you hear him on Tv this morning..... I think everybody should give up work and start claiming their £35000 (equivalent) ...its just not worth working anymore.............. ........... everybody on charity handouts ...Can we get the Chinese to pay ??????

Alf Bibby
Millionaire Calamity Cameron knows all about living on benefits doesnt he

Stuart Harley
I may be a millionare Alf, but I dont want too see my money (Our) money given to scroungers who play the system !!! we all know thats done, its got to be stopped








james
5:55pm on 23/1/2012
What other countries have a similar benefit system as the UK.
paulnaylor
6:40pm on 23/1/2012
scandanavia , norway, demark, finland and sweden all have a much better welfare system than the uk...but they have a much smaller population it has to be said, so they can maybe make it work better for that reason.