UK & World News
Church Of England Votes Against Women Bishops
The Church of England's governing body the General Synod has voted against the appointment of women bishops.
The Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams had said he feels a "deep personal sadness" at the result, which has been described as a "a disaster for the Church of England".
Dr Williams, who leaves his post at the end of this year, wished his successor the Rt Rev Justin Welby, "every blessing" with resolving the issue.
"Of course I hoped and prayed that this particular business would be at another stage before I left, and course it is a personal sadness, a deep personal sadness that that is not the case," he said.
"I can only wish the Synod and the archbishop all good things and every blessing with resolving this in the shortest possible time."
The draft measure to allow women to become bishops failed to gain the necessary two-thirds majority among the lay members.
The House of Bishops voted 44 in favour, with three against and two recorded abstentions. In the House of Clergy, 148 voted in favour, 45 against and there were no abstentions.
But in the House of Laity, which represents lay members in parishes around the country, 74 voted against, compared to 132 in favour with no abstentions.
It will be 2015 before the issue is debated again.
The Rev Rachel Weir, of the campaign group Women and the Church, said: "We're absolutely devastated. Not just devastated on behalf of clergy women - obviously this will be an enormous blow to clergy women, it's awful for their morale - but it's a disaster for the Church of England."
Christina Rees, a campaigner for women bishops, said the result was a "disaster".
She added: "It's a real shame. I really thought it would go through, most of the Synod is in a state of shock.
"Seventy-four per cent of the Synod said yes, but it had to have a two thirdsmajority in each house - it only failed in the House of Laity.
"I think it's a betrayal of trust in the wider church."
The Rt Rev Justin Welby had earlier urged the General Synod to give the legislation the necessary majority.
But a series of speakers opposed giving final approval to the legislation.
Canon Simon Killwick, chairman of the Catholic Group in the General Synod, urged members to vote against the legislation.
"I do not believe that this draft legislation will be good for the Church of England," he had said.
"We are all desperate to move on from the sad infighting of the last few years - but this legislation does not provide a clear way forward."
General Synod member Susie Leafe said she believed the result was because of faults in the legislation.
"There were a lot of places along the way that we could have had a measure in front of us that wouldn't have been voted down, and it's very sad that this was able to go on without us facing the reality of the situation.
"I know there is a large minority in the church that feel the same way as I do. We knew it was going to be very, very close."
But she said supporters will still try and go on with their fight, adding: "We'll take a new piece of paper and we'll start again and we'll find a way of doing this.
"Churches will still be open on Sunday."
The vote was the biggest decision to be taken by the 470-strong body in 20 years and the defeat means the legislation will take at least another five years before it could reach the same stage for debate.
The result has been criticised on Twitter. Former Home Secretary Jacqui Smith wrote "Sick of waiting for the established church to come in line with every other major inst. Disestablish - they don't represent my country."
Following the vote, Father Gillean Craig, the vicar at St Mary Abbotts, the church David Cameron and his family attend, emailed her congregation saying: "Please pray with me for our church and especially for those women who feel that their own priestly ministry has been savagely undermined and devalued by this failure to acknowledge that God has endowed them with gifts and talents that makes them worthy to share in the church's ministry of leadership ... This is a day of shame for our church."
A spokesman for the Church of England said there would be an emergency meeting of the House of Bishops on Wednesday.
what do you think?

Edgar Beckett
Why do we need women in the clergy at all ? we`ve managed without for 2 000years.

Mark Wood
It's not at all lear that we have - early history is imprecise. What the Church is trying to wrok out is what#s right for now - pity we can't all agree!

gwely
Why do we need men in the clergy ? Men through various religions have caused all sorts of problems.

Juliecrumpton1234
Oh havnt they just, gwely!

GillieLouise
Your a little out of date with that comment Edgar.

joelle cooke
I`m glad they refused women to get what they fancy.

Juliecrumpton1234
Not getting you, joelle, not at all

GillieLouise
Can you answer this one joelle cooke. Is it a sensible comment or is it just your hatred for women?

Grant Berry
How come the Church are not bound by equality laws?

d and d Phillips
Because it is able to run it's own affairs without the meddling interference of politicos and atheists.

gwely
Because the church is a law unto itself.

Chris Robinson
Very good question, Grant. It seems they are allowed to discriminate against both women and g a y s.

Grant Berry
One law for all.

Juliecrumpton1234
Hypocrites....all religions are, discrimination obvious here, talk about, how does it go? All men are equal in the eyes of god? Huh! Unless your a woman that is! Se..x.ist too! Intolerant, unforgiving....you don't need religion, if you know the difference between right and wrong, are a good person treat others fairly, that's all you need!

Dave Harrison
Julie. Exactly. You don't need to trot off to church every sunday to be a good person

GillieLouise
I just wonder that too Grant. A women can lead a Battalion into conflict but cant adorn a Bishops attire. Strange that. I wonder what the Church is frightened of.?

Grant Berry
Human rights laws at the european court should be the next thing.

Dave Hall
And these people wonder why there are less people going to church its because they have old fuddy duddys running them no forward thinking living in the past

Mark Wood
It's not the people running it who voted against. Both the curent archbishops and the incoming one supported teh legislation. It's the politicking mof the laity that's scuppered this motion.

Dave Harrison
Mark. Much the same as our political system. MP's etc know best and to hell with what the layman thinks, their views can be ignored. Except that the C o E own rules ensure the laymans voice is heard. Pity it doesn't work in Westminster

Mark Wood
It's unfortunately not that straightforward Dave (H!) - the layman around the country had already voted - massively in favour. The central "General Synod" is skewed and gives a disproportionate weight to the tiny minority who oppose women's ordination. That's what so frustrating for the rest - lay and ordained!

Shalom43
Dreadful how democracy doesn't work in the things of God isn't it...

Daniel Hancock
I thought the queen was head of the C of E, if so the argument against female bishops should be blown out of the water.... Otherwise how can a woman be head of the church....

Mark Wood
For what it's worth - please note almost all the bishops voted FOR women bishops, 75% of the clergy voted FOR women bishops and in the country at large all but 2 of the Dioceses have voted FOR women bishops. If 6 people at this General Synod had voted the otehr way it would have gone through. The Church of England at large is massively in favour of equality. I think this says more about how unrepresentative the "house of laity" of the General Synod is of teh chruch at large. A bad day for teh C of E..

d and d Phillips
It's worth nothing. A vote is a vote. If you aren't happy with the rules at the outset don't enter the debate.

Andrea Hill
I agree mark, what a shame.

Mark Wood
D n D - I AM happy with the rules, just not the fact thet GEneral Synod doesn't seem to reflect the Church of England. Local Synods have backed this - I believe to the point that those opposed to women bishops make up 3% of the active church....

Shalom43
That's the trouble, the CoE bows to the rule of democracy rather than Divine principles.

Juliecrumpton1234
All a load of utter rubbish! So what? Religion.....all about power!

gwely
I totally agree

Dave Harrison
Julie. Absolutely. This benevolent God who says do as I say or suffer hellfire & damnation. I do what I believe is right without this type of threat hanging over me.

Shalom43
Faith in God has nothing whatsoever to do with Religion.

Andrea Hill
I hate it when people say religion is a load of rubbish. But they are up there with the rest when it comes to christmas etc. can you explain that.

krafty81
Because now a days its about being with your families and loved ones.

Eileen Pullin
We want presents thats all. We are not celebrating a make believe god.

Andrea Hill
Do you know why we celebrate christmas???

shaun spencer
Well it should be on the 21st the equinox.buy christians have taken the festivities over like they have every pagan celebration.

Chris Robinson
Religion IS a load of rubbish, and I'm not particularly hot on Christmas.

Andrea Hill
Christmas is the celebration of birth of christ, it not separate from religion. People are just making silly comments.

shaun spencer
The week of christmas easter were celebrated centurys before christ by pagans .most of the traditions of christmas have their roots in paganism.from the robin ,presents ,decorations ,mistetoe.crackers.christ only came into texts by scholars in the forth century.

Chris Price
Jesus would of been born in july . December25 th is the roman pagan festival of sol invictus. It was the first pope that suggested having christmas day on the 25th.

Juliecrumpton1234
Your right, Shaun!

shaun spencer
Thats right chris. But the pagan ritual was held on the 21st dec.equinox now believed why stonehenge was built as well as many more circles some 5000 years before christ.

blue side
People seem to be loosing the plot here

Eileen Pullin
No wonder not many people have time for the church no more.

Bazil Brush
our mother wich art in evan

Andrea Hill
That statement not worth a comment.

Juliecrumpton1234
But you did comment, Andrea! Lol!

Mark Wood
"As a mother tenderly gathers her children, you embraced a people as your own" - words, referring to God, from the C of E's Communion Prayer G - one of the most sacred parts of our shared life. No problem imaginging God as Mother - even if it's probably better not to mess up teh Lord's Prayer!

ali baba
next women will want gods job :)

Juliecrumpton1234
There is no god

Chris Price
Who says god is a dude?

Chris Price
Because when mother nature gets mad, people get hurt

Chris Robinson
To even believe that there is such a thing as a 'god' means you have to suspend your intellect. It's pure fairy stories. But, if people choose to want to believe in such stuff, let them. That's one of the reasons people wear poppies once a year, I guess.

Juliecrumpton1234
Ahh now, Mother Nature! A force that is apparent all around....her I believe in!

Shalom43
Who is Juliecrumpton1234 and why are they contributing to a discussion concerning the place of women in the CoE if they are an atheist? Perhaps they secretly want a place in the CoE...

Dave Harrison
Shalom. Because she has a valid opinion and has every right to express it in much the same way as yourself.

Shalom43
A valid opinion that is in line with yours...

Juliecrumpton1234
Erh, trust me, I no way want a place in any church, they make me shiver, ugh!.....thanks dave!;-)

Chris Price
It says somewhere in the bible that only men can run the affairs of the church. It also says not to eat shell fish and wear mixed fabrics. I bet this lot take notice of that when their ramming clam chouder down their throats and wearing cotton and polyester.

d and d Phillips
Oh grow up!

Mark Wood
\NO - Chris has a point here. THere are lots of culturallt specific references in the Bible - often addressed to specific congregations/groups in particuklar circumstances. It's easy to take a verse of the Bible at random and use it to back your own perspectve, while ignoring the bits you don't like (shell fish)etc. We need to realise that teh Bioble is a collections of writing formed over thousands of years - niot God's manual. We need to sue those texts carefully and listen to what God might be saying through them - not use them to beat each other about the head with.

Shalom43
Mark Wood you are so out of order. The Bible IS the Christian's handbook and the Holy Spirit our Guide. We can interpret how we want, but God's principles remain the same. As to the question at hand, Scripture is clear that God created both male and female and all that proceeds from that. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you support same sex equality as well...

Mark Wood
Sorry Shalom - several million Christians and the greatest theologians of the past 200 years would beg to differ. Please don't be so hasty to judge. We agree that the Holy Spirit is our guide - which is kind of the point I was making... as opposed to assuming that the way one verse reads must always determine the future. Not that it's relevant - but your assumoltion about my thoughts on g a y marriage is wrong.

Shalom43
If we go against Scripture our very foundation is weakened. I have to say that every (officially appointed) female priest / vicar I've seen or met, has cropped hair and tends to look like a man. I make this point to emphasise that this in itself tends to suggest they themselves recognise it is a man's place to minister. Equality according to human reasoning is foreign to the Kingdom of God and you should be ashamed you are supporting it. It suggests your judgement is not formed according to the Truth. I suggest this non judgmentally.

blue side
Bad decision whilst I make no claim to being a devout Christian my experience is that females have a warmth and sensitivity which the church needs

Dave Harrison
Blue side. Especially when you snuggle up to them

t.bulgin
I agree blue. They are less likely to be pervs as well.

Grant Berry
Women should take the to the Europrean court

Dave Harrison
Read a couple of articles on this and the words blatant discrimination & betrayal feature, not much Christian forgiveness there then. Then there are suggestions of legislation changes which smacks of the EU system. Keep voting until we get the answer we want. This issue doesn't bother me one way or another as I am no great believer in men in frocks and the mumbo jumbo they spout. Each to their own as they say but I find the church increasingly irrelevant in this day & age

Shalom43
Either you don't know your Bible, or you have decided to conveniently ignore what it teaches.

Grant Berry
well said dave,

Dave Harrison
Shalom. I don't read fiction. Thats why I didn't read Tony Blairs autobiography either

t.bulgin
heh heh, good one.

Shalom43
Your opinion is therefore not even worth considering. You cannot be bothered to investigate, let alone try and understand. Very poor.

Dave Harrison
Shalom. Be careful you don't fall off your moral high ground and hurt yourself
Name witheld
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blue side
Me thinks a bad mistake and for those who cite the bible let me remind them it has been manipulated over centuries to meet the needs of the church.

Shalom43
Some changes may have been made but that doesn't alter the fact we are male and female and aside form physical differences, there are other things that mean there was sound reason why the Apostle Paul taught what he did.

Mark Wood
Male and female - created in teh image of God: could equally be taken as a reason why a truly effective house of bishops needs to have both genders within it... to truly reflect the breadth of Christian/human experience.

Shalom43
I agree, but that doesn't mean a woman should be appointed a place where she is able to exercise authority over a man.

Grant Berry
Nothing more than an outdated cult of superstition, they should be taken to court for breaking the law.





Greg Bungham
6:58pm on 20/11/2012
S-e-x-i-s-t So no wonder they're against so many other things if they don't allow ladies to be bishops.
d and d Phillips
7:58pm on 20/11/2012
The wimmin would not appreciate you calling them ladies.
Juliecrumpton1234
10:03am on 21/11/2012
...that statement not worth a comment, David n Debra? ;-)