UK & World News

  • 18 December 2011, 4:35

Dawkins: PM Wrong On Christian Values

Prime Minister David Cameron has been criticised by leading atheist author Richard Dawkins for suggesting that a revival of traditional Christian values could counteract Britain's "moral collapse".

Mr Cameron told senior Church of England clergy that a belief in "live and let live" had too often become "do what you please".

This "passive tolerance" of immoral behaviour had helped fuel the summer's riots, City excess, MPs' abuse of expenses and Islamic terrorism, he said at an event to mark the 400th anniversary of the King James Bible.

But the remarks were dismissed by Professor Dawkins, an evolutionary biologist and author of The God Delusion, who said the Bible was good literature but an "appalling moral compass".

Speaking to Sky News, Prof Dawkins said: "Of course you can cherry-pick the verses that you like - that means the verses that happen to coincide with our modern secular consensus.

"But then you've got to have a rationale for leaving out the ones that say stone people to death if they break the Sabbath or if they commit adultery...

"The very idea of the New Testament, of crucifixion, of redemption of a scapegoat who is put to death for the sins of all mankind - what a terrible moral compass that gives."

In the rare foray into religious issues, Mr Cameron also admitted he was a "vaguely practising" Christian but insisted: "We are a Christian country. And we should not be afraid to say so."

He added the Archbishop of Canterbury was welcome to express his views on politics, referring to recent attacks on coalition policy by Dr Rowan Williams, but said the head of the church should not be surprised when he responds to criticism.

Rev Sally Hitchiner, vicar at St John's Church in Ealing, told Sky News she was "surprised" by Mr Cameron's comments about "how much he does do God".

"I think he was saying - in much stronger terms than even I would put - that Christianity is fundamentally important and needs to stay fundamentally important," she said.

The British Humanist Association said the Prime Minister's remarks were factually incorrect and "bizarre" and expressed a hope they were meant as an insincere sop to Christian campaigners.

Its chief executive Andrew Copson said: "The most hopeful political reading of his speech is that Mr Cameron doesn't really mean it and that his statements are intended as a way to pacify the increasingly strident lobbying of a minority of Christians for more influence in our public life and greater privilege for those with Christian beliefs."

what do you think?

first 20 comments

Paul Tinker

8:21pm on 17/12/2011

We are a Christian nation, but due to the bankers, and this and the previous governments a lot of people will not be able to celebrate the traditional Christian celebration that is Christmas. Thank you Blair, Brown,and in some part Cameron,may your festivities be as muted as that which will be felt by the crisis you all helped to forge.

Score: 7

Name witheld

8:39pm on 17/12/2011

This comment has been removed for violations of our Terms and Conditions.

Score: 12
1 reply

Geraint Morgans

11:17pm on 17/12/2011

I agree - but I think I clicked on the wrong symbol.

Paul Cleasby

8:42pm on 17/12/2011

What a Idiot,What are the Ten Commandments If they are not a Moral Compass,Has he even read the Bible,I dont think he has!The trouble with a lot of these people who comment aginst God is its all hear say,they have never studied the Bible in ernist!

Score: 9
2 replies

Pat Owen

8:48pm on 17/12/2011

absolutely!Jesus never advocated stoning.as far as I can remember he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" Why does dawkins think that he is always right!

Score: 6

DQ_DeLaMancha

9:54pm on 17/12/2011

Hearsay is what the bible is entirely based upon - the vague retelling of stories across generations. There is nothing to study. All we need is one simple edict to live by - "Be excellent to each other" - if we do that we don't need the outdated 'stories' in a 2000 year old book.

Score: 6

John Poole

8:58pm on 17/12/2011

Which Party did Richard Dawkins say he voted for at the last election? Oh yes - Clegg and the Lib Dems and of course Clegg has said he is an atheist like Richard - so I just wonder if there is a Christmas message in there somewhere??

Score: 3

Bob Godfrey

9:00pm on 17/12/2011

The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity; There is none who does good. Psalm 14 : 1

Score: 5
1 reply

Geraint Morgans

11:20pm on 17/12/2011

Well it's not really much good to quote the bible to support the bible.

Helen Hume

9:06pm on 17/12/2011

Professor Dawkins is very good at doing what he criticises others for doing - taking Bible verses out of context simply to back up his argument. Well done to Mr Cameron for being brave enough to speak up for the Christian faith - pity the church doesn't do it more often.

Score: 5

ABritMum

9:26pm on 17/12/2011

No Folks, come on, let's let him have this one but it MUST be followed through business and governing and EVERY part of our society. See how long it lasts then.....

Score: 4

Julie Crumpton

9:28pm on 17/12/2011

Im no expert, and no christian, but there have been wars over religion, it really scares me, can someone explain, if there is supposed to be one god, why do all the different religions squabble like kids over it all, ......just saying

Score: 5

Michael Morey

9:41pm on 17/12/2011

i do not think god is real but we must always keep that beliefe open it gives some people securety and comfort in bad times they must be the judges and i sure hope they are right becouse in harsh times we all say god help me and some of us say thats life

Score: 4

Chris Carr

9:44pm on 17/12/2011

I hate to admit to agreeing with Cameron but he is right in part: excessive tolerance has lead to the decline in behaviour and moral standards but as a practsing atheist I don't think it has anything to do with being secular. I have a very strong moral sense which I think I have instilled in my teenage son, but it has little to with god. the 10 commandments are a great summary of how we should live and say, basically, treat others as you would wish to be treated, which I think is what someone else said about 2,000 years ago and which has echoed and been echoed by all major religons since. Let's just stop being greedy and start thinking about other folk for a change.

Score: 7

William Dennett

9:44pm on 17/12/2011

I am an atheist. I have no wish to be associated with a Christian anything. First Mr.Cameron got his sums wrong, now he's relying on 2,000 year old twaddle.

Score: 7

Josh Warren

9:59pm on 17/12/2011

How dare he (refering to Dawkins) critise Cameron in that way! Firstly I would like to point out that "the ones that say stone people to death if they break the Sabbath or if they commit adultery..." is not an example of morality. Secondly Cameron is also arguing that we should not be accepting the "do what you please" mentality and yet Dawkins actively attacks christianity. As for the Humanist statement: I'd say that was "bizarre" (perhaps some despirate journalist was hunting for some more conflict). I'm not sure that Copson had even listened to Cameron. Well all in all this is a new experience for me: defending David Cameron. What next...

Score: 6

Gavin Nellis

10:21pm on 17/12/2011

This comment has been removed for violations of our Terms and Conditions.

paddyj

10:29pm on 17/12/2011

I struggle to make up my mind as to weather to believe in God or not at the moment, but one thing that is as plain as the nose on your face is that Christian values and morals that have built our society for centuries, are decent, kind and honourable. And it is actions that are the opposite of these are the things that every decent person in the world hates so much. So weather you are Christian, Pagan, Muslim, Agnostic or whatever you cant say Mr Cameron was wrong to say we should go back to that mind set, i'm not raacist at all but when there are too many different ways and beliefs thrown together there is bound to be friction when one overlaps another, and Christianity from what I can see is a lot kinder per say than any other I can think of.

Score: 5

Adrian Wagstaff

10:29pm on 17/12/2011

All I need to know about every religion on Earth and beyond is, I won't be marrying a holy girl and she won't be having any sons. Thus, I will spend the next few decades, God willing, ignoring your Judaeo-Christian/Muslim celebration of Christmas/Xmas, having no decorations, no Christmas cards put up, sending no presents, not watching any films on TV, not going to anybodies' churches and probably thanking God for everything I ever got out of this life, including, most of all, de-personalised, non-humanoid robotics, internetting and computers. ? Praise be to God, the Creator of all this. Perhaps, if you stopped banging on the fencing and telling me to, "Move it!" I might consider considering anybody elses' religious ideas after 40+ years of silence.

Score: 4

Geraint Morgans

10:58pm on 17/12/2011

Prof. Dawkins is quite right There may be some good advice in parts of the bible, but there is also a lot of very bad advice. The bit about not allowing a witch to live (for example) has resulted in many thousands of harmless, reclusive, or eccentric people (and often their pets) being burnt alive, or killed in equally horrible ways. A God would have forseen the consequences of those words, and how stupid, yet powerful, people would interpret them. There are many other examples. Mr. Cameron is also right about 'moral collapse' - but religion is not the answer. Bertrand Russell (an atheist, and perhaps the doyen of philosophers) said that the only hope for the world is love of an unselfish kind, combined with intelligence.

Score: 6

Bob Godfrey

11:18pm on 17/12/2011

The question should really be, how can you explain science without the presence of an Almighty God? It amazes me that brilliant people would rather hang their hats on truly unprovable issues like evolution than have faith in God. Scripture has proven itself time and time again. It has never been wrong! How many scientists can claim that? Name one, just one, scientist who came to earth as the fulfilment of hundreds of prophecies, then died to save mankind from their sins, and then rose from the dead after three days, proving His divinity! There is not one. The Bible has been tested through centuries and has never been disproved. It should be the most revered volume of scientific study that exists

Score: 1

Chris Robinson

12:22am on 18/12/2011

Who is Cameron to 'preach' about 'morality'? He is a millionaire yet he is cutting people's benefits while doing nothing to curb the obscene excesses of the Tory Party backers - the City financiers and the banksters.

tagliatellius

12:32am on 18/12/2011

Promise the weak minded jam tomorrow in a perfect world when they pop their clogs, obey your betters ye peasants or be cast into the deepest pit of hell! One day we might wake up.

Score: 2

jeanne

2:16am on 18/12/2011

Mr Cameron also admitted he was a "vaguely practising" Christian - oxymoron.

Score: 1
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