UK & World News
- 9 January 2013, 1:05
Govt Wins Vote On Capping Rise In Benefits
MPs have voted to back the Government's plans for a 1% cap on annual rises in most working-age welfare payments and tax credits.
After heated exchanges during a Commons debate, politicians voted in favour of the legislation at a second reading by 324 to 268 - a majority of 56.
The Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill limits rises in most working-age benefits to 1% in 2014/15 and 2015/2016 instead of linking them to inflation. Similar measures for 2013/14 will be introduced separately.
The plan is aimed at slashing £5bn from the welfare bill over the next five years.
Ministers say the cap is needed because it is unfair that state handouts have been rising twice as fast as wages during recent years of austerity.
Labour voted against the move to end inflation-linked rises and branded it a "strivers' tax" as 68% of households caught by the below inflation rise in benefits were in work.
But Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith accused Labour of tying working families into the benefits system and "buying votes" by increasing handouts.
He claimed the previous government had created a system in which nine out of 10 families with children could claim tax credits, including those on £70,000-a-year.
He said: "They (Labour) think that helping people is about trapping more and more people in benefits. What is really interesting is that under the tax credit system, nine out of ten families with children were eligible for tax credits.
"This went in some cases up to over £70,000 in earnings. What a ridiculous nonsense they have created."
Former Liberal Democrat minister Sarah Teather rebelled and warned attacks on the poor could lead to the "fragmentation" of society.
Other Lib Dem rebels were David Ward (Bradford East), Julian Huppert (Cambridge) and John Leech (Manchester Withington).
The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) has estimated seven million working families will be £165 worse off a year, compared to £215 for the 2.5 million workless households.
Mr Duncan Smith says the £165 figure only reflects the benefits cap and claims working families will actually be £125 better off each year due to the rise in the income tax threshold.
He said that since the beginning of the recession incomes for those in work have risen by about 10%, while for those on benefits they have risen by about 20%.
He said: "What we are trying to do over the next few years is get that back to a fair settlement and then eventually it will go back on to inflation."
Shadow work and pensions secretary Liam Byrne claimed the Bill was a "hit and run on working families" who were paying the price for the Chancellor's economic failure.
A Labour bid to block the Bill and insist on a "compulsory jobs guarantee" was defeated by 328 votes to 262, a majority of 66.
what do you think?
Diane Rogers
Good glad they saw sense
Steven White
Your obviously not a working person with children who benefits from this then a?
Diane Rogers
Not now but have been.We have 3 children 31 19 and25. I gave up work when first was born I chose not to go back to work. My husband worked full time, All there was then was family allowance.We struggled but we managed. I went back to work when theyoungest was at school that was in a school kitchen. Still my wages and my husbands and the family allowance is what we lived Mortgage,bills,food and clothes
Diane Rogers
Sorry second child should have said 29
Steven White
That's wonderfully Diane. I'm on a pretty reasonable wage but can only afford to have the one child and my Mrs had to go straight back to work as we could not survive on one wage (she would of loved to be a stay at home mum). You would be very lucky to survive on one wage now! Tax credits are very important to us.
Diane Rogers
Can I add just incase any of tou are wondering my husband was not on high wages some of the time he was self employd.He ia a painter and decorater
Andrea Hill
at last
lol mcr
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Chris Robinson
Once again, Diane is omitting the full truth as she's already let slip on another thread that, while she is criticising people who claim benefits, she herself claimed both family allowance (child benefit) and dole money when SHE needed it. Oh, and she doesn't think it's right for parents to 'put their kids in nurseries' yet she put her kids in playschool - only so they could learn to get on with other children , you understand. So it's okay for her, but not for others. What a hypocrite.
john
Another working class tory.
Mark Hussey
We are all haveing to save so should people on benifits .
lol mcr
Were not all having to save though Mark, the multi millionaires, bankers, MP's etc. are still getting their pay rises.
Chris Robinson
How can you save on benefits? Don't be ridiculous. I'm in full time work and already I'm drawing on my savings just to get by from month to month.
Roger W Patrick
Remember this when they (the Con-Dems, and the Pure Cons) come knocking on your door for your vote in the next General Election. You'll be able to ecognise them, they'll be well-dressed, well-fed, fat, bloated and arrogant. Much as they are now.
t.bulgin
I will remember them and I will thank them for making the right decision.
brian foster
The Labour candidate will be the one just released from prison for expences fiddle and refusing to pay it back
Vladtheinhaler .
For moat cleaning, foster?
chris
What strange polarised politics we have now! So if you are employed in any Public Sector you are intended to vote only one way...or else? The Welsh (assembly) Government is a good example of arrogance at work.
Michael Hawkins
Roger An excellent description of Ed Balls, John Prescott and that bloated idiot that spent £1000.00 a roll of wall paper doing up his free accomodation
t.bulgin
Labour voted to cap public sector pay didn't they ? Looks like they are taking public sector votes for granted then. Now they are after benefits claimants. Once they think they have them they will forget all about them.
Daniel smith
Finally a decision that makes sense! So many working people, me included, have endured lower than inflation pay rises for years! Why cant people who stay at home all day do the same for a change?
Vladtheinhaler .
This comment has been removed for violations of our Terms and Conditions.
Steven White
Working/child tax credits are affected as well! The Tories are doing a wonderful job of convincing everyone on benefits are sat at home watching Jeremy Kyle!
Diane Rogers
Stephen,There will still be rises just not as much.I only get a rise when minimum wage goes up.My husband gets a small rise.
Steven White
Diane. The Tories are making it out to be a cut on skivers! Total and utter nonsense. I don't like the way they are trying to divide the nation. The rich get a tax cut, so they will employ more people?????? Come on, do they honestly think we are that stupid?????
lol mcr
Steve - you're not that stupid but plenty are.
Chris Robinson
These 'rises' will be cancelled out by inflation, they are cuts in real terms. But then why have a race to the bottom in income? Why not level UP rather than DOWN? Meanwhile all the millionaires are again making money hand over fist with their pay cuts and continue to refuse to invest in real jobs. THEY are the REAL scroungers.
Windows Live User
Wont save much though Results from a recent TUC survey - The average public perception is that 41% of Britain's welfare budget goes on benefits to unemployed people. The reality of it all is just 3% does. (if the 3% is correct then a cap on it wont amount to much, but I suppose it all helps, besides the short term unemployed are searching for jobs so hopefully it wont effect them too much, assuming they pick up a job a quickly The long term unemployed are lazy good for nothings according to these columns. No other reason possible y'know)
Michael Hawkins
Chris Why do not the unions support their members and invest in real job Why are they not buying up failing factories to keep their members in work
Lisa Morris
If it was up to me they wud hav work for their benefits even if it was doin sum voluntary work of some kind.
Diane Rogers
That is a very good idea Lisa. Like you say some sort of voluntary work
Steven White
They are already getting people to "volunteer" for the benefits. Just a way for businesses to pay below minimum wage and directors/business owners to get richer.
Diane Rogers
Stephen isn't it a way of getting some experience.The firm I work for has taken a couple of youngsters on works experience for 8 weeks while the job centre payed them.Rhey enjoyed it and got a lot from it. Are tou saying that is wrong
stephen
work for my own money in your dreams
Andrea Hill
money for nothing, it has to stop. now next best move would be stop giving money to junkies and alcoholics, just vouchers so they wont starve.
stephen
Andrea why do you pay n/i
lol mcr
Lisa - what voluntary work would you have them do? Clean the streets? What happens to the street cleaners then? Do they lose their jobs and go on the dole?
Martin Daniels
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Chris Robinson
If there's 'voluntary work' to be done, then why can't this be properly paid for a fair day's work?
adam
Because a great portion of them Chris are not interested in getting a fair days pay for a fair days work,they would rather have money for nothing,hence the reason a couple of million immigrants came here to do mostly low and unskilled work over the last few years while a similar number of people sat on their backsides claiming unemployment benefit,thinking that those jobs were beneath therm.
Robinson56Chris
In your Daily Mail/Express/Murdoch Tory world maybe. But in reality, as I've said already, the govt's own figures state clearly only 0.7% of benefit claimants are the as you call them 'scroungers'. You're just anti-immigrant, clearly, a racist instead of looking at the real scroungers, the idle, greedy, corrupt rich 1% who caused this crisis in the first place.
Louisa Gieldon
Lisa.. Imagine losing your job. imagine not being able to find another, imagine having to survive on dole money. Then imagine being forced to do work for that pittance. If you cannot see how humiliating and wrong that would be, then you're probably beyond reason
john byrne
Not everyone on benefits is a scrounger or skiver, plenty of hard working NHS employees get tax credits and child tax credits because wages are so low in some cases at minimum wages. IDS and the rest of the condems, Want you to believe that any getting welfare are chavs sitting at home smoking and drinking watching day time tv its just not true, don't believe all they say.
Steven White
Division is the only chance of winning the next election. But it isn't going to work.
john byrne
Looking at some of the comments on here, they seem to be convincing quiet a few.
John Mechelen
Yes there are a few who have been laid off,but there are loads more who are milking the system.
Chris Robinson
On the government's own figures only 0.7% are 'milking the system'. And in no way have 'only a few been laid off' - it's hundreds of thousands.
lol mcr
John - what evidence do you have?
John Byrne
So you go after the true skivers and reward the workers. Thats not the tory way though, punish em all, its the only idea they have. If you read my post you would see it was in defence of the hard working people, but you have been brainwashed by the tory party and their media friends.
john byrne
lol mcr if im the John your asking for evidence. I work for the NHS so know the pay scales pretty well.
lol mcr
John B - sorry for the confusion, my comment was directed at John M
simon williams
you all moan about the goverment do something about then
lol mcr
Why do so many people on these boards keep saying benefit claimants should get a job? WHERE ARE THESE JOBS? Why are they so angry with the poorest, people who are poverty stricken, when bankers, MP's and tax avoiding billionaires are creaming off a far bigger proportion of out taxes. If these boards are an indication of the way the British public thinks, I'm truly worried. Benefit claimants are being demonized, they should bring a class action against the government for they bullying they have had to endure as a result of condem policy.
adam
These jobs have been snapped up over the last few years by immigrants because our own people have been too bone idle and see a lot of these jobs as beneath them. Not everybody,but certainly a large portion of people claiming long term unemployment are lazy,workshy chancers who think the state owes them a living and think it is their human right to sit on their backsides all day and let everybody else pay for it.
adam
Then where did the immigrants get their jobs from ? Its not crap mate,its a fact that cannot be argued with. We had a couple of million people claiming unemployment benefit while at the same time the same number of people came from overseas and started work...Did they bring the jobs with them then? Talk about burying your head in the sand...
mick_salt
They interviewed an employer on the Radio the other day. He employed 50 staff in unskilled work, all foreigners. The interviewer asked him why he employed only foreigners. He replied that either he couldn't get British people to work for the money or they only wanted to do 16 hours a week or they'd lose their tax credits and 16 hours a week was no good to the employer. So, to be fair, Adam has identified at least one aspect of why we have so many benefit claimants. The current system obviously needs some sort of overhaul so that claimants have more of an incentive to take available work.
lol mcr
I have absolutely no problem with immigrant workers but comparing them to the indigenous British worker is not straightforward. A recent survey found that most east European workers do not plan on settling in the UK and has such don't put down permanent roots. Let me give you a scenario. Four or five of them rent an house together and each pay £200 per month to cover all bills, this enables them to save the majority of their wages. They can stay here while they save enough money to improve their situations once they return home. Don't blame British workers for not wanting to take jobs which pay a pittance, blame successive governments for propping up wages that are too low to live on.
Robinson56Chris
Immigrant labour is so often used as cheap labour which should be stopped. The wages should be higher for all so exploitative, greedy employers cannot take advantage of any cheap pool of labour either indigenous or migrant workers.
mick_salt
I thought this was what the minimum wage was for. You can raise the minimum wage, but this may not achieve a lot because it will have the knock on effect of raising the cost of living. It's not a simple matter of companies profiteering either - many are having to squeeze their profit margins in order to survive the downturn and quite a number are failing to survive the downturn. In addition, the more employers pay in wages, the fewer people they employ. It's a fine balancing act.
adam
I do blame anybody that can work and has a job to go to(which even at poor wages would still pay more than benefit) but chooses not to take it. Anybody that could work and chooses not too is a disgrace,end of story. You do whatever work is out there and while you are doinfg that you keep striving to get something better or improve your standing in whatever job you are in but to simply say,"i wont do that job because i am too good for it" is shameful.
Windows Live User
Here is an interesting one i came across . The results of a survey carried out by the TUC · Average public perception: 41% of Britain's welfare budget goes on benefits to unemployed people. Reality: just 3% does. Only 3% then, so it wont be an earth shaker if all the unemployed managed to get a job then would it?
Windows Live User
A gem from the TUC survey ·The perception was only 21% think a family, with 2 children, would be better off if one of them got a 30-hour-a-week job on the minimum wage; and this 21% thinks, on average, the gain would be £59 a week. The reality is: the family would be £138 a week better off. That's incentive enough to get work The border control twice have copped a local takeaway. This time caught 3 working with no papers as well as sleeping rough in the shop rear. He gets big fines but continues. Do you think he was paying them min wage?
lol mcr
Adam - I'm repeating myself here, I've said pretty much the same thing on another board. Increase the minimum wage to a living wage. Means test the employers who genuinely can't afford to pay more than the current minimum wage and pay the benefit to them so they can continue to employ and grow. The government would never go for this though, too many of them and their friends are creaming our taxes to subsidise cheap labour then hiding the profits in off shore accounts.
adam
Lol..We probably have more in common than you would think because i agree with part of that but i do think that most employers in this country are probably small to medium sized businesses that are struggling as it is so even by means testing them(probably very expensive to do and ultimately probably very hard to define what amounts to spare capital to go on increased wages),wouldnt allow any great increase in wages at the moment.My bugbear is with people wilfully choosing not to work..
adam
Lol...cont'.. surely getting out and doing any job reaps far more benefit than choosing to stay on welfare. If you are working you are gaining experiences,meeting people,bolstering a CV, earning more than on benefit(even on minimum wage),keeping up a modicom of self respect...I have worked in some pretty poor jobs in the past but it was better than doing nothing. I just think that the work ethic has been sadly lacking in a lot of people over the last decade or so and people have become far too accustomed to rights without responsibilities.
Facebook User
Oh no! Might have to sell me Jeremy Kyle DVDs
steve devrell
Some of the measures suggested here are totally correct eg reduce foreign aid and military expenditure. We are too small a country to play the world's policeman. However, there was an interview on TV yesterday featuring a man who must have been 20 stones + sitting in a Working Men's Club with a pint of beer and a packet of ciggies on the table, saying that he didn't have a life, just an existence. That is his choice, he chooses to spend the tax payers money on fags booze and Griegs. 95% of the world's population would envy that EXISTENCE!!!.
lol mcr
Steve - Do you know how that man came to be on benefits, for how long, what barriers there might be to him finding work and most importantly if there is even a vacancy he could fill? What he does with his benefit is his choice. If he wants to spend it all on ciggies, booze and Greggs, that's his choice. Why would you envy such an existence? Your anger is very much misdirected, I have a far bigger problem with the fat cat bankers, MP's, SIR Philip Green, Vodafone etc, they are robbing from the poor and living a real life of luxury. Why can't you see that?
steve devrell
No MCR. It should be MY choice. I worked b. hard all my life and paid an incredible amount of tax. No I am seeing the fruits of my labours being used as benefits and spent on things that I now as a pensioner cannot afford for myself - where is the fairness in that! ?
Louisa Gieldon
Steve you are making judgements about a man you do not even know. That's not really an argument.
Robinson56Chris
And can't you stop to think that, sometimes, our capitalist media often showcase such an interviewee to give that loaded impression that he is a typical example so that some people like you might jump to those kind of conclusions?
lol mcr
Steve - how do you know that man hasn't worked all his life until recently? Who are you to say what he can spend his benefit on? I'm 43 and have never been out of work since I was 16, if I was to fall on hard times and needed to claim the benefits I'm entitled to, would you dictate what I should spend it on?
lol mcr
If you can't afford stuff you want, it's your own fault for not planning for your future, stop blaming others.
John Mechelen
When i was out of work many years ago i did voluntry work,stopped me getting in a rut,and it was a reference for getting back to work.The government have got this right.
lol mcr
John - I'm sceptical about you story as I know that many years ago jsa claimants were not allowed to do voluntary work. Additionally, the voluntary work being offered now is open to abuse and will result in unscrupulous employers obtaining a steady stream of free labour rather than taking on an employee.
mick_salt
Don't knock it lol. Prospective employers are often very impressed by people who do voluntary work or offer themselves on a free trial. Our eldest, struggling to find a job when he left university, decided he wanted to go in to computer training. He went to a computer training company and offered to work on a free trial. After the trial, he was rewarded with a permanent post and hasn't looked back since. You can understand why. His action showed commitment and initiative, two qualities that employers prize highly in their staff.
lol mcr
Mick - I did the same thing when I was 14, I couldn't get a Saturday job in a hairdressers so offered to work for free to gain experience. They started paying me within a month. This is not the same though, this is an exercise in propaganda to have the working classes squabbling amongst themselves. There are lots of skilled workers who don't need experience, they need jobs. Why aren't the government tackling the real issues instead?
mick_salt
I know that the economy's still sluggish, lol, as it is in the majority of European countries, but the number of people in employment reached a record high of almost 30 million in 2012 and unemployment reduced again. Admittedly some of the jobs are part time, but of course a lot of people only want part time work. Irrespective of this, a welfare bill of £200 billion a year and rising (one third of all expenditure) is just ridiculously high and can't be justified in any way. It's mostly money down the drain that can't be used for investment and business development and puts the UK at a competitive disadvantage.
lol mcr
Mick - If you are not a Tory spin doctor, you have missed your calling. The economy is not sluggish, it has stalled and depending on which "experts" you listen to, we may well be heading for a triple dip recession. We are not in this mess because of the benefits bill, the mess was brought on by the financial crash due to a lack of regulation, regulation which the conservatives fought against when they were in opposition as they said it would stifle growth. The record 30 million employed you quote is expected to happen in 2015, it did not happen last year. Unemployment is expected to rise this year because the size of the workforce will outstrip the number of jobs being created. In other words, there are more workers than jobs! As you pointed out, more part time jobs are being created than full time. This is why the welfare bill is so high, these jobs are being subsidised by tax payers money. Part time jobs also skew the work figures, 2 full time jobs can be broken up to create 5 16hr contracts, imagine how bad the jobless figures would be if this wasn't happening? As for money down the drain, 3.5 billion Vodaphone tax bill written off, Boots, Starbucks, Sir Philip Green sending their profits to off shore accounts whilst having their employees wages propped up by our tax system, government ineptitude (10's of millions wasted on the west coast rail bid fiasco). Do I need to go on? And since you see benefits as "money down the drain", will you be giving your pension up or is it just other peoples benefits you have a problem with? As for business development, growth and investment, exactly what have this government done? Nothing. They stay in the news by demonising benefit claimants, claimants who are in work, are sick, injured or disabled, who have worked and paid into they system all their lives but have been laid off since the financial crisis, a crisis brought about by successive governments but for which NO ONE has been jailed.
mick_salt
The "mess" was also caused by European governments unwisely building up mountains of debt. The inevitable crash, whatever its cause, would have caused less mess if Gordon had actually kept a responsible hand on the economic tiller as he'd promised. You quite rightfully mention the tax avoidance / evasion of various corporations as "money down the drain", but fail to mention more than £100 billion spent on pointless wars and £42 billion paid annualy on debt interest, both legacies of the last government. Gordon B hinself was famous for saying that a high benefits bill was an indication of government failure and he was right. I've never actually heard anyone from the coalition "demonising" genuine benefit claimants, quite the reverse.
lol
Mick - Please do some research before posting. The mountains of debt you refer to did no exist until we bailed the banks out. In 08 the UK deficit was £36b, lower than the £41b in 92, £51b in 93 and £46b in 94 under the Conservatives. I am not a Labour supporter but facts are facts. I agree with you about the wars but from 02-07, even with this ridiculous waste of expenditure the deficit was no worse than it had been under the conservatives from 91-96. The enormous debt interest you refer to is again as a result of bailing the banks out. Browns quote is nothing more than stating the obvious but a high benefits bill is the result of a failing economy not the cause. And as for not demonising genuine benefit claimants, please give me your definition of "genuine". Is it someone who can't get a non existent job?
Thomas Barker
So a rise in job seekers allowance becomes appox. 80p instead of £1.60 per week not a big deal really is it. The Romans knew the value of 'Bread and Circuses' to keep the mob quite, do you really want to force mobs onto the streets, say 1% of those without reacted badly thats 30,000 angry people heaven help us all if they get a leader or influenced by a foreign power. An extra £1 million pound a week will look cheap then!
Robbie369P .
So now that is sorted, (saving 1b a year) can they get the mega companys to pay the billions they owe?
Name witheld
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john
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Robinson56Chris
Welfare myths: On average people think - The proportion of the entire welfare budget that goes on benefits to unemployed people is 41% - the actual figure is 3% Proportion of the welfare budget that is claimed fraudulently is 27%. - the actual figure is 0.7% Proportion of those claiming JSA who go on to claim for more than a year is 48% - the actual figure is 27.8%. Some people should get real.
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lol mcr
Unfortunately I don't think accurate info will help, some people just want someone to blame, and as usual with bullies they'll punch down rather than up.
john
And the MOD is billions of pounds over budget on defence projects that will be obsolete by the time they come to fruition. William Hague wants to waste millions more on aiding Syrian terrorists. How is Libya going at the moment? How much did that Hague hobby horse cost the British taxpayer?
tagliatellius
Latest reports say that our beloved Members Of Parliament are asking for a 32% increase in their salaries. These creatures are totally without shame.
Glynne Powell
7:50pm on 8/1/2013
The question is they should also be asking the public is whether or not to freeze MPs pay until further notice. I've never liked the fact that they can give themselves a pay rise anyway.
t.bulgin
8:31pm on 8/1/2013
I agree, they should cap their wages too.
shaun spencer
11:55pm on 8/1/2013
ARE YOU SAYING THEY OUGHT TO BE PAID.make them redundant.
Michael Hawkins
7:17pm on 10/1/2013
Why not pay MPs on results